GIN GLIDERS ( Gin Seok Song)
As the market understand better for 2 liner system and also we learned it is safe enough.
It is time to certify the 2 liner C wing.
I do not see any negative point for the 2 liner wing.
We have been working on 2 liner C class wing for 2 years too.
I do not see why 2 lines are less safe than 3 liners.
Anyway, in the beginning, there will be 2 types C class, 3 liners, and 2 liners but 2 liners will be the one later.
Gin Seok Song
AIR DESIGN ( Stephan Steiglair)
What is your opinion about the new C certification?
I guess everybody agrees that 2-line gliders are great to fly but are these wings really needed in EN-C? there are some questions coming up. is the pilot level able to handle such gliders? flying is easy but how to control deformations? actually, we will find out once the first gliders are entering this market.
sorry for answering questions with making new questions - but honestly, I don't know either. my job is to make such wings also easy to handle for this new class and make them suited to the pilots level.
Will AirDesign invest in a 2 liner C? Or would it be a 2.5 line C?
we are continuously investigating and developing in any direction. if the new EN is coming we are prepared for this. more info will follow then.
Or are there two versions of C gliders one 3 liners and one 2 liners for security and easiness of flight in the future?
probably both versions will run side by side for some time, but 2-liners will take over by time - that's my prediction on the market.
UP Paragliders ( Frantisek Pavlousek)
Thank you, everything is going well. I hope the same for you.
I will try to answer your questions:
1. What is your opinion about the new C certification?
In my opinion, progress is good. (Anyway nobody can stop it...) - It brings some bad things every time but in general, they are more benefits compared to bad points. There are some points I would like to mention (to explain):
- It would be good if the categories are changed like A, AB, B, BC or A, A+, A++, B, B+, etc. as this would follow the real market situation (the question is if this would ever become a reality)
- There are no low C and high C wings at the moment as nobody cares about C gliders with low performance but this will change probably with two-liners in the C category - because the collapses made with folding lines do not show = test the real collapse behavior of the certified wing. So there is a big probability that some C-certified two-liners will be much less safe than the actual C category wings.
2. Will UP invest in a 2 liner C? Or would it be a 2.5 line C?
The UP team works on some new ideas for the C category but let’s say "this information is kind of confidential".
3. Or are there two versions of C gliders one 3 liners and one 2 liners for security and easiness of light in the future?
I have answered already (above): In my opinion, it will become to be more interesting to certify two wings in the C category. It is up to people like you are - those with a strong impact on the market if they teach people to understand that the C letter is only a letter but the real glider behavior is something different. I expect with folding lines allowed to the C category the market will create (sooner or later) terms like "low C / high C" or maybe "folding lines certified C / true C".
I hope this is what you have been asking for, let me know if any other questions...
Thank you, I appreciate that you have asked for my opinion,
MAC PARA ( Peter Recek)
Thanks. I hope you are doing well too.
It seems that a good manufacturer will have to have this as a prestigious product.
We are working on a new EN C. It is a 2.5 liner overall wingspan.
First prototype flies well and "collapse" lines make the performing of asymmetric easier and closer to reality.
Anyway, the question arises and it is a doubt about its simplicity. Suitable for hike & fly (X-Alps) or more durable for a longer lifetime?
Therefore we made Elan 3 in light version and will compare it with the new EN C. Fully rod-reinforced airfoils are expensive and time-consuming in production.
We will see. When the fashion and marketing influence speak the clear language any reasonable objection will be suppressed.
What is your opinion about the new C certification? Will you invest in a 2 liner C? Or would it be a 2.5 line C?
I already fly a real 2 Liner for C-Class. The problem I see is that we can pass the homogenization but most actual C-pilots are not ready for this kind of wings.
I would prefer an extra homologation class, like C/D or similar.
In the end, personally, I feel the actual performance and fun are more than enough for most pilots. Only competition pilots and persons with a low self-wort need this kind of wings really.
The biggest advantage of this story is that the manufacturers have something new to sell again.
There would be much more important things to do, for example harmonizing harness-paraglider combinations or more efficient rescue systems.
SUPAIR ( Pierre-Yves)
At the moment, we have no plan for a 2 liner (or a hybrid 2.5 line) design in the ENC category at SUPAIR.
Anyway, I asked myself "what is the main goal of such evolution ?" According to me, it's mainly about performance at high speed. I don't think turning an EN C glider into 2 or 2.5 lines will help to handle, flying in thermals, compactability, or behavior compared to the same design in 3 rows of lines).
If you buy a 2 liner EN C, you have to accept that your glider will be (compare to a 3 liner ENC) :
- More complex to build, so more expensive
- More sensitive to trim adjustment ( trim adjustment must be done more regularly)
- More demanding on the ground
- More demanding when losing the flight (regular SIV training is advised)
- More complex to perform SIV maneuvers (you will need an extra folding line to perform some maneuvers)
- More demanding when packing (take care not to bend the rods, it can affect performance and behavior)
- Less compact and heavier (more rods)
But of course, the market is driving the choices of designers! If people prefer to fly a top-level 2 liner ENC than a 2 liner END, it's where we will go! But you should really consider the loss and benefits and ask yourself if it's what you need.
Have a nice day!
Here's ADVANCE answer: Valery Chapuis and Team
The opinion of our development team members on this subject is very homogeneous.
Now C gliders certified with a folding line are accepted.
Removing lines help to increase the performance and the speed, especially with high aspect ratio wings, and makes the lines control before take-off easier for all wings. A narrow chord at the wing tip helps to reduce the number of lines.
The rear-risers control gives also more performance than the use of the brakes because there is less deformation in the profile.
As long as "honest" C-gliders are developed as two-liners, we see an added value in this possibility and a logical next step in the development of paragliders in general. However, if this leads to more certifiable "hot boxes" (dangerous gliders) in the future, we will probably not follow this trend.
Should this technology come on lower aspect ratio wings? Not sure if the recreational pilots need and can handle the extra performance and use safely the rear-risers control.
Right now we mainly work on B wings - our IOTA DLS will be launched this spring - and on tandem wings, we have anyway not yet a plan for a new C wing because our SIGMA 11 is less than 1 year old and there is a high demand for it. Nevertheless, we will open our eyes and analyze exactly what our competitors make out of the new possibility. When we ourselves will start with a C-two liner project is still open.
Fly well and take care.
Valéry + Team
SWING (Alessio Casolla)
we are very excited about the introduction of folding lines for C-wings, even though we can understand the arguments of those, who are skeptical about the whole thing.
But we are talking about an already established technology in the EN-D segment that is mastered by lots of pilots. To exclude adjustments of the standards generally only out of concern about wrong purchasing decisions of the pilots would mean slowing down the development progress and depriving the right pilots of new opportunities.
For years we have had a similar problem with our RAST technology that we had to adopt standards that were not designed for it.
Now we are excited about the expanded possibilities to find out what the combination of 2-liner technology and RAST has to offer for the pilot.
What is your opinion about the new C certification? Any investments in a 2 liner C?
We think it is a good step forward for all those who want to use innovative technologies and solutions of the most modern gliders also in lower category paragliders. Of course, we must always take into account the type of pilot who will use these new wings. Our only concern is the simulation of flight problems by the pilots. We are talking about a category of wings that pilots who fly less assiduously and who are still gaining experience, who will have to understand the use of folding lines, also approach.
Will it be there two versions of C gliders one 3 liners and one 2 liners?
This will ultimately be decided by the market. But, especially in the transition phase, it would be desirable if we could offer two different wings in this category. The 2-liner handling is different from the handling of a 3-line concept and we can imagine that not all pilots who are looking for a C-wing want to have it like this.
Is it achievable today with 6 AR, and still being homogeneous in strong air?
Yes, especially with the use of RAST we have the possibility to make the canopy more compact and easier to control. For example, in the Sphera RS project, we initially found ourselves having to reduce the reinforcements and the internal structure as we had too much rigidity and compactness. So we think that there won´t be any problems even working on smaller AR.
I would be very happy to know your answer about future C's, and D's…
We are very close to the end of the Sphera RS project, which will be our first 2-line D wing with RAST for 2022 and we are planning a 2-liner C wing for the beginning of 2023. We think that it would have been possible to get the Sphera RS into the C category, even though it is a high-end D design, but the new C certification came too late for this. However, the test results of the maneuvers are very promising even so.
…also about any 2.5 line design that could involve the B class.
Undoubtedly with the knowledge and experience gained in the development of the Sphera RS, we could work on the lower category wing with a significant reduction in the lines. As always, these are decisions of the market, and for sure we´ll have to take into account the type of pilot who will feel attracted by such designs. But as pilots we are curious to know what is possible, so we will give it an experimental try at least…