Friday, January 14, 2022

C category gliders for 2022...

Hi,
I see many pilots are interested in the C category future designs, so I did ask the designers, and manufacturers their opinion:
Here it is:
Ziad:
What is your opinion about the new C certification? Any investments in a 2 liner C?
Will it be there two versions of C gliders one 3 liners and one 2 liners?
Is it achievable today with 6 ar, and still being homogeneous in strong air?
Best regards,
Ziad
BGD ( Bruce Goldsmith)
Hi Ziad,
At BGD our next C glider will be the Lynx2 and we are working on this right now.
It is a 2.5 liner, 3 in the middle and 2 in the tip.
We are very excited about this glider and impressed with the performance.
For EN C two-liners it is our philosophy to wait and see how the market develops.
Bruce
PHI (Hannes Papesh)
Hi Ziad!
As you know, DHV and SHV were against the introduction of folding lines for C wings.
The argument of SHV was IMHO very good.
Folding lines are making it much harder to train collapses in SIVs.
So this is without a question a higher demand, as training is a main part of safety.
This higher demand is asking for a higher classification C -> D.
So we will wait and see, how it develops.
Which test center will test according to the new rules (until now no one is accredited for them) etc.
If it seems necessary to us to present a low aspect 2 liner and put it into C class we will be prepared.
It would have been possible since years to present low ar 2 liners in D, but nearly nobody did.
-the rest is marketing...
Regards!
Hannes
FLOW ( Felipe Resende)
Hi Ziad,
Hope you had a great start to the new year.
That's a good question. We are already working on some prototypes since late 2020. I can say the feeling of the glider is great, It super nice to have a compact 2 liner and be able to push super hard the limits of speed in turbulent air and be in total control. In total connection with the glider, as if the glider is almost an extension of our own body. When flying at accelerated flight, one can catch pretty much anything, any collapses with the rear riser steering making the experience pure and the pilot is only really working to read the conditions and stay in the air, rather than trying to keep the glider open.
I believe this is the biggest benefit of a 2-liner EN C. For the aggressive pilots who like to fly on the limit using 100% of the glider potential, like gliding at full bar and not backing off in rough air, the 2 liners are definitely the glider for those pilots.
But the weekend warrior pilot who likes to have long XC flights but does not have the need to push more than 50-60% speed bar, the hybrid 2-3 liners like the Fusion are the perfect glider for those group of pilots, which corresponds probably to 60-80% of the EN-C pilots. They can fly them as 2 liners but they are not a 2-liner.
The 2-liner is an amazing technology, side collapses are uneventful and they reopen with a bang in a split second. In real life, it is very rare to have collapses. My only concern about certifying the 2-liner as an EN C is the full-frontal collapse required for certification. As its always a tricky recovery for 2 liners and if you can't use the brakes to help the reinflation it's even trickier.
In my personal view, this maneuver alone is the biggest challenge designers will have to overcome to certify a 2-liner as an EN C, as the certification doesn't allow brakes to be used to help the reinflation after the collapse, and the glider has to reinflate on its own before 4 seconds. It is especially difficult at full bar. All other maneuvers are fine, considering we can use collapse lines.
Another point to consider is the performance, there isn't much performance difference between EN C 2-liners and EN-C hybrid 2-3 liners. Even though one can fly the hybrid glider with rear riser steering, it is still not the same feel and experience. The 2 liners are the ultimate and in my opinion the best concept. As if a 2 liner glider is a no-compromises approach.
I hope one-day certification will change slightly to adapt and cater to the new technology as the current standards really put a hand brake in development.
At the moment, one of the fascinating aspects of the hybrid 2-3 line technology is to use for the EN B class. It's amazing how much performance gains we can get on an EN B when using the Hybrid technology. On our comparative tests flying the Freedom2, It shows almost the same performance as the Fusion.
These are my 2 cents and I thank you for the opportunity to share some of my views on the topic.
Cheers,
Felipe Rezende
OZONE (Luc Armant)
Hi Ziad,
C certification with collapse lines would be interesting progress in the certification norm. Actually, it’s not allowed by the EN text.
This can open the field of possibility by including 2 liners and including different sorts of structures of 3 liners.
I don’t think it would lead to a more demanding glider, for a given aspect ratio.
2liner structure is still unknown with an aspect ratio as small as 6. It would certainly need some adaptation from a known 2 liner structure in order to keep a good chord cohesion.
We are working on a higher level ENC or low-level END depending on what we can get. Our goal is to make a model that would complete our range with something in between the Delta4 and the Zeno2.
Cheers,
Luc
TRIPLE SEVEN (Aljaz Valic)
Hi dear Ziad,
Of course, we love to see innovations happening. But the question remains if these are going the right way. We're also sitting on a development of such a wing, but this does not mean we are bound to release it. Many things need to align with the product to satisfy our delicate taste, so we will see where it takes us.
Best regards
Aljaz Valic
DRIFT PARAGLIDERS (Stanislav Klikar)
Hi Ziad,
I am very excited about upcoming EN-C gliders and have prepared two prototypes - one hybrid 2/3liner and the second one pure 2liner. We will be testing both of them through the season and will see the benefits and disadvantages. I believe it is possible to build a low AR two-liner with sufficient reinforcements. Performance-wise it will be a step forward to decrease line consumption significantly. The difference of glide between three liner EN-C gliders is too small compare to high EN-B wings. So we will wait for a change of rules of folding lines to be able to build a modern glider in that category.
Best regards,
Standa

GIN GLIDERS ( Gin Seok Song)

Hello Ziad,

As the market understand better for 2 liner system and also we learned it is safe enough.

It is time to certify the 2 liner C wing.

I do not see any negative point for the 2 liner wing.


We have been working on 2 liner C class wing for 2 years too.

I do not see why 2 lines are less safe than 3 liners.


Anyway, in the beginning, there will be 2 types C class, 3 liners, and 2 liners but 2 liners will be the one later.


Gin Seok Song



AIR DESIGN ( Stephan Steiglair)

Hi Ziad,


What is your opinion about the new C certification?

I guess everybody agrees that 2-line gliders are great to fly but are these wings really needed in EN-C? there are some questions coming up. is the pilot level able to handle such gliders? flying is easy but how to control deformations? actually, we will find out once the first gliders are entering this market.

sorry for answering questions with making new questions - but honestly, I don't know either. my job is to make such wings also easy to handle for this new class and make them suited to the pilots level.


Will AirDesign invest in a 2 liner C? Or would it be a 2.5 line C?

we are continuously investigating and developing in any direction. if the new EN is coming we are prepared for this. more info will follow then.


Or are there two versions of C gliders one 3 liners and one 2 liners for security and easiness of flight in the future?

probably both versions will run side by side for some time, but 2-liners will take over by time - that's my prediction on the market.


Best Regards

Stephan Stieglair




UP Paragliders ( Frantisek Pavlousek)

Hello Ziad,

Thank you, everything is going well. I hope the same for you.

I will try to answer your questions:


1. What is your opinion about the new C certification?


In my opinion, progress is good. (Anyway nobody can stop it...) - It brings some bad things every time but in general, they are more benefits compared to bad points. There are some points I would like to mention (to explain):

- It would be good if the categories are changed like A, AB, B, BC or A, A+, A++, B, B+, etc. as this would follow the real market situation (the question is if this would ever become a reality)

- There are no low C and high C wings at the moment as nobody cares about C gliders with low performance but this will change probably with two-liners in the C category - because the collapses made with folding lines do not show = test the real collapse behavior of the certified wing. So there is a big probability that some C-certified two-liners will be much less safe than the actual C category wings.



2. Will UP invest in a 2 liner C? Or would it be a 2.5 line C?


The UP team works on some new ideas for the C category but let’s say "this information is kind of confidential".


3. Or are there two versions of C gliders one 3 liners and one 2 liners for security and easiness of light in the future?


I have answered already (above): In my opinion, it will become to be more interesting to certify two wings in the C category. It is up to people like you are - those with a strong impact on the market if they teach people to understand that the C letter is only a letter but the real glider behavior is something different. I expect with folding lines allowed to the C category the market will create (sooner or later) terms like "low C / high C" or maybe "folding lines certified C / true C".


I hope this is what you have been asking for, let me know if any other questions...

Thank you, I appreciate that you have asked for my opinion,


Best regards,

Franta


MAC PARA ( Peter Recek)

Hello Ziad,

Thanks. I hope you are doing well too.


New ENC?

It seems that a good manufacturer will have to have this as a prestigious product.

We are working on a new EN C. It is a 2.5 liner overall wingspan. 

First prototype flies well and "collapse" lines make the performing of asymmetric easier and closer to reality.


Anyway, the question arises and it is a doubt about its simplicity. Suitable for hike & fly (X-Alps) or more durable for a longer lifetime?

Therefore we made Elan 3 in light version and will compare it with the new EN C. Fully rod-reinforced airfoils are expensive and time-consuming in production.


We will see. When the fashion and marketing influence speak the clear language any reasonable objection will be suppressed. 


 

Looking forward

Regards


Peter

PROFLY and designer for many brands (Michael Nesler)

HI Ziad!

What is your opinion about the new C certification? Will you invest in a 2 liner C? Or would it be a 2.5 line C? 

I already fly a real 2 Liner for C-Class. The problem I see is that we can pass the homogenization but most actual C-pilots are not ready for this kind of wings.

I would prefer an extra homologation class, like C/D or similar.

In the end, personally, I feel the actual performance and fun are more than enough for most pilots. Only competition pilots and persons with a low self-wort need this kind of wings really.

The biggest advantage of this story is that the manufacturers have something new to sell again.

There would be much more important things to do, for example harmonizing harness-paraglider combinations or more efficient rescue systems.

Best regards

Michael



SUPAIR ( Pierre-Yves)

Hi Ziad,

At the moment, we have no plan for a 2 liner (or a hybrid 2.5 line) design in the ENC category at SUPAIR.

Anyway, I asked myself "what is the main goal of such evolution ?" According to me, it's mainly about performance at high speed. I don't think turning an EN C glider into 2 or 2.5 lines will help to handle, flying in thermals, compactability, or behavior compared to the same design in 3 rows of lines).

If you buy a 2 liner EN C, you have to accept that your glider will be (compare to a 3 liner ENC) :

- More complex to build, so more expensive 

- More sensitive to trim adjustment ( trim adjustment must be done more regularly)

- More demanding on the ground

- More demanding when losing the flight (regular SIV training is advised)

- More complex to perform SIV maneuvers (you will need an extra folding line to perform some maneuvers)

- More demanding when packing (take care not to bend the rods, it can affect performance and behavior) 

- Less compact and heavier (more rods)

But of course, the market is driving the choices of designers! If people prefer to fly a top-level 2 liner  ENC than a 2 liner END, it's where we will go! But you should really consider the loss and benefits and ask yourself if it's what you need.

Have a nice day!

PY


Here's ADVANCE answer: Valery Chapuis and Team
Dear Ziad,
The opinion of our development team members on this subject is very homogeneous.
Now C gliders certified with a folding line are accepted.
Removing lines help to increase the performance and the speed, especially with high aspect ratio wings, and makes the lines control before take-off easier for all wings. A narrow chord at the wing tip helps to reduce the number of lines.
The rear-risers control gives also more performance than the use of the brakes because there is less deformation in the profile.
As long as "honest" C-gliders are developed as two-liners, we see an added value in this possibility and a logical next step in the development of paragliders in general. However, if this leads to more certifiable "hot boxes" (dangerous gliders) in the future, we will probably not follow this trend.
Should this technology come on lower aspect ratio wings? Not sure if the recreational pilots need and can handle the extra performance and use safely the rear-risers control.
Right now we mainly work on B wings - our IOTA DLS will be launched this spring - and on tandem wings, we have anyway not yet a plan for a new C wing because our SIGMA 11 is less than 1 year old and there is a high demand for it. Nevertheless, we will open our eyes and analyze exactly what our competitors make out of the new possibility. When we ourselves will start with a C-two liner project is still open.
Fly well and take care.
ValΓ©ry + Team



 

SWING (Alessio Casolla)

Hi Ziad,
we are very excited about the introduction of folding lines for C-wings, even though we can understand the arguments of those, who are skeptical about the whole thing.

But we are talking about an already established technology in the EN-D segment that is mastered by lots of pilots. To exclude adjustments of the standards generally only out of concern about wrong purchasing decisions of the pilots would mean slowing down the development progress and depriving the right pilots of new opportunities.

For years we have had a similar problem with our RAST technology that we had to adopt standards that were not designed for it.

Now we are excited about the expanded possibilities to find out what the combination of 2-liner technology and RAST has to offer for the pilot.


What is your opinion about the new C certification? Any investments in a 2 liner C?


We think it is a good step forward for all those who want to use innovative technologies and solutions of the most modern gliders also in lower category paragliders. Of course, we must always take into account the type of pilot who will use these new wings. Our only concern is the simulation of flight problems by the pilots. We are talking about a category of wings that pilots who fly less assiduously and who are still gaining experience, who will have to understand the use of folding lines, also approach.

Will it be there two versions of C gliders one 3 liners and one 2 liners?

This will ultimately be decided by the market. But, especially in the transition phase, it would be desirable if we could offer two different wings in this category. The 2-liner handling is different from the handling of a 3-line concept and we can imagine that not all pilots who are looking for a C-wing want to have it like this.

Is it achievable today with 6 AR, and still being homogeneous in strong air?

Yes, especially with the use of RAST we have the possibility to make the canopy more compact and easier to control. For example, in the Sphera RS project, we initially found ourselves having to reduce the reinforcements and the internal structure as we had too much rigidity and compactness. So we think that there won´t be any problems even working on smaller AR.

I would be very happy to know your answer about future C's, and D's…


We are very close to the end of the Sphera RS project, which will be our first 2-line D wing with RAST for 2022 and we are planning a 2-liner C wing for the beginning of 2023. We think that it would have been possible to get the Sphera RS into the C category, even though it is a high-end D design, but the new C certification came too late for this. However, the test results of the maneuvers are very promising even so.

…also about any 2.5 line design that could involve the B class.

Undoubtedly with the knowledge and experience gained in the development of the Sphera RS, we could work on the lower category wing with a significant reduction in the lines. As always, these are decisions of the market, and for sure we´ll have to take into account the type of pilot who will feel attracted by such designs. But as pilots we are curious to know what is possible, so we will give it an experimental try at least…

Alessio

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